No, the fact that many are intent on dealing with the Western church’s sin of materialism and her willful ignorance of what the Bible says about proves we love the church and God’s word.

Surely you believe in the prophetic voice? Would you have wished that Isaiah had not condemned all those kings and the wealthy oppressors? Would you have called that class warfare? Would you have wished that Mary had not talked about God sending the “rich away empty”? Was that class warfare? Was James brutal treatment of the wealthy a sign of class warfare?

Why is what they’ve done acceptable (and they were much more harsh than I have been) and what those who do so today doing it NOT acceptable. THAT’S what I’m not understanding about your position and haven’t really seen you address.

And just to address one point you made that I didn’t address earlier, you said:

“I’ve found that folks of your persuasion tend to believe that the Bible says that money is the root of all evil.”

Well you’ve found the wrong folk. I know exactly what that passage says and agree with it exactly as it is stated. For what it’s worth, I’ve found that many folk have latched on to that phrase (“OOOH, it’s the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Well, I have no intention of marrying my money, so I’m good.”) as a loophole to endorse their greed.

I don’t claim that you believe that God hates rich people. But rather that you believe that poverty in material possessions is inhearently virtuous and that wealth in material possessions is inherantly immoral.

In my original post I said that I see this view in scripture to be just as flawed as the view that says material wealth is proof of a virtuous life and material poverty is proof of God’s disfavor because of sin.

The issue, as with the rich guy in the post, isn’t even about money. It is about people putting Jesus first, ahead of everything else, including their financial position. If you hold too tight to your possessions and value them more than you value God then he may very well ask you to unload your things. If, on the otherhand, you value your impoverished position more than you value God, he may very well ask you to get off your butt and get busy to earn some excess so that He can bless someone else through you. Because Jesus wants to be first priority.

Besides, since it isn’t spelled out in scripture, where do you draw the “wealth line of virtue”? Is the person living in a mud hut in Africa somewhere inherantly more viruous than you? How about someone on welfare here in the states? What about the guy at work that earns about a dollar an hour less than you?

In the other direction, who earns too much? Apparently it is someone who’s income falls between yours and Donald Trump’s.

And who gets to decide where it is drawn? Do you? Do you want me to? Or should we leave it up to some priest somewhere?

God may not hate rich people, but the way you’ve gone on and on here you sure seem to.

You appear to be waging a class war against rich people. You feel the Bible justifies your position.

I dissagree with you, just as I would disagree with anyone who said poor people’s suffering is proof of their disfavor with God. The whole of scriptural evidence supports neither extreme.

But the fact that you are so intent on fighting that war effectively proves the point of my post – class warfare is alive and well in the church.

“You say that you believe God “wants us to be outrageously wealthy.” Then you say, “Wealth, as the bible clearly and repeatedly tells us, is a trap and oppression is inherent in obtuse material gain.” That is a contradiction that makes no sense to me.”

There are two sorts of wealth discussed in the Bible, it seems to this amateur Bible student. Material wealth, the wealth most often spoke of (and negatively) in the Bible. The wealth of Gold, Mammon, Stuff.

There are some folk in the Bible who have all this wealth and they’re spoken of as Men of God (as in David). But, as in my analogy, David also had a harem, wives, concubines and mistresses. Is that an endorsement of harems? I think not.

I’ll state it again and plainly so you’ll understand what I think: God does not hate wealthy people. People can be wealthy and godly, but it’s difficult, Jesus tells us quite frankly.

The other type of wealth I find in the Bible is the Wealth of Enough. God gave the Israelis in the desert manna, just enough to make it through the day – no matter how much they gathered.

God has given us this great creation to tend and for it to tend to us within the moderation of Enough. We can’t ALL consume like Donald Trump. God did not design the world to support that kind of wealth – which I’ll call “materialism” to separate it from the Wealth of Enough – true wealth.

And perhaps this is the crux of where we’re not communicating. If I say that I’m talking about the dangers of materialism and overconsumption, maybe you can see more clearly what I’m talking about and even agree with me. I used the word “wealth” to describe it because that is the biblical word used.

You say that you believe God “wants us to be outrageously wealthy.” Then you say, “Wealth, as the bible clearly and repeatedly tells us, is a trap and oppression is inherent in obtuse material gain.” That is a contradiction that makes no sense to me.

Instead of changing definitions of words to fit my beliefs (i.e. “It’s just that I define “wealthy” differenly than those who love money.”) I prefer to change my beliefs to fit the words I find in the Bible as they are commonly defined.

Also your analogy falls flat and does not apply at all to the subject at hand. The Bible calls sexual relations outside of marriage immoral and, as you point out, has quite a bit to say about it. However the Bible does not classify either the acquiring of wealth or the giving of wealth away as immoral. Wealth in and of itself is not a moral issue. (For example look at the lists such as the one in Galatians 5:19-21. Wealth is not addressed at all.)

I’ve found that folks of your persuasion tend to believe that the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. What it says is “the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.” Even when the “God wants us to be poor in material possessions” crowd will admit that those are the words the Bible uses, they tend to come back with “but what that really means is…”

It is easier to make a rule about money than it is to make a rule about the love of money. Rich is easy for folks to define. Usually they take it to mean “people with more money than me.”

Using a definition like that takes the pressure of conviction off their beliefs so they don’t feel they should give away everything they have, live in a mud hut somewhere, do all their work for free, and never accumulate any possessions of any type.

But if they truly saw poverty in material possessions as a virtue then they would. It is only by playing with definitions that they can make the mental gymnastics work there.

The rich guy I referred to in the post didn’t miss out on getting to know God because he was wealthy. He missed it because he valued his money more than he valued getting to know God. It is a critical distinction.

Honestly, I don’t relate to God through a set of rules. I relate to Him as a person relates to another person, by spending time with Him and having dialogue and conversation with Him.

A set of rules would be easier to describe and explain. Interpersonal relationships are by nature complicated and at times confusing. And they certainly are not so easy to explain. And then I could rail against anyone who didn’t follow the rules because they would be wrong.

I’ve been down the rule path. It was easier to get my head around as far as what was required on my end. And it felt good when I could show other people they were wrong. But I found that ultimately it sucked and left me feeling empty inside.

Now I know there are consequences to my actions in my relationship with God just as there are in any relationship. The cool thing is that God felt it was important that I understood how to best relate to Him so he gave me a manual. It’s the only relationship I’ve got one for. (I certainly didn’t get a manual like that when I got married! It would come in handy, though! )

And again, please don’t get me wrong. I’m not advancing the position that “God wants us to be wealthy in material possessions” either. As I’ve said repeatedly, I see both extremes as missing the mark.

I imagine we both believe the bible teaches us to live rather chaste lives, that sexuality is a wonderful thing within the committed bonds of marriage, right? It’s a fairly consistent teaching in the Bible.

However, there are exceptions found in the Bible. Holy men with great harems and concubines. Lot offering his daughter to be raped. Abraham offering his wife to the ruler of the foreign land (I forget where). Don’t these examples offer up alternative visions of healthy sexuality? Aren’t we waging sex wars to claim that folk must only marry an individual?

Well, no, both you and I might say. There are a few exceptions found in the Bible, but the RULE is: sex within two individuals in marriage. In the exceptions, it’s not necessarily endorsing the exception, just noting it. But the general and consistent rule is sex is for marriage between two individuals.

Same with economics, only the case for what I’ll call Sabbath Economics (Ched Myers’ label) is SO MUCH stronger than the case for marriage. Sure, some people can be wealthy. No, God doesn’t hate wealthy people. BUT THE GENERAL RULE found throughout the Bible is “Beware of materialistic wealth, join in solidarity with the poor and find the wealth of Enough for everyone.”

THAT is the rule.

I don’t expect you to take me at my word, but as you re-read the Bible, I only ask that you keep an eye out and your heart open for all the messages about economics, solidarity with the poor, warnings to the wealthy and about wealth.

To acknowledge that this is the Word of God is not to engage in class warfare, but it is to honor God’s word and take it seriously. To discount God’s warnings about wealth and God’s admonishment to join in solidarity with the poor is to listen for only that which tickles our ears.

You said:
“Both sides can pick out just as many individual scriptures to push forward their views.”

And here’s another area where I suspect you’re tremendously mistaken.

I don’t think you can find nearly as many scriptures that seem to endorse material wealth and the few that do so will not do so in nearly so strong a language as the vast number of passages that strongly criticizes the oppression of material gain and those who have the material gain.

“To me it seems more often a rationalization for why they haven’t gotten where they wanted to in life.”

And forgive me for pointing this out, but I suspect that most folk in the US make an argument like this as a rationalization for being wealthy. Make no mistake, I AM wealthy. Making over $20,000/year as I do puts me in the top (I forget exactly) 10%-ish wealthiest people in the world. This is not a criticism of others.

It is a criticism of wealth. Wealth, as the bible clearly and repeatedly tells us, is a trap and oppression is inherent in obtuse material gain. By having the lifestyles that you and I and the vast number of us do in the west causes great social injustice.

And that’s why “bickering over this issue is NOT a colossal distraction.” Dealing with social injustice is CENTRAL to loving others and God, which you’ve correctly identified as the primary concern.

Reading through your comments, I get the feeling that you are firmly established in the “God wants us to be poor” camp. I see that as an extreme viewpoint which, as I stated in the post, I respectfully disagree with, just as I disagree with those who espouse the opposite extreme view, “God wants us to be rich.”

Both sides can pick out just as many individual scriptures to push forward their views. But when I read through it all I believe they are both missing the point.

The problem I have with the “God wants us to be poor” camp is the hypocrisy I see when I look at that viewpoint. Folks with that view point have a tendency to rail against what others are doing, or not doing, with their money. But they generally don’t stop to think about the logical extensions of what they espouse.

If they truly believed that being poor was a virtue and that wealth was intrinsically corrupting then they would give away everything they had, live in a mud hut somewhere, do all their work for free, and never accumulate any possessions of any type.

But pretty much they don’t. Especially those who live in America.

To me it seems more often a rationalization for why they haven’t gotten where they wanted to in life. If others have more of what deep down they want for themselves, then the wealthy must have acquired it because they are bad people. Often times it goes even further to “The rich should be punished (because they are really bad people anyway). Let’s take their money (via taxes) and have the government give it to the poor.”

Like I said in the post, often times it is just an excuse for laziness. It is more comfortable and easier to rail about the evils of wealth than to get up and get busy working.

Now as for what the Bible has to say about wealth, I have taken a pretty good look at it over the years. Please understand that I don’t subscribe to the “God wants us to be rich” viewpoint either.

Again, like I said in the post, bickering over this issue is a colossal distraction.

Love God. Love others.

The rest will take care of itself.

I had a thought that I’d run past you: Have you done any research on wealth and poverty and what the Bible says? How many warnings ARE there in the Bible about wealth? How often does God “choose sides” with the poor? Are money issues the most common topic in the Bible (I think, actually, The Kingdom of God is most common, but economic issues are second, if I remember correctly).

What about the Jubilee laws, what are they and how often do those concepts reappear throughout the Bible? How do they apply to us today?

You seem to have an honest thirst for biblical knowledge, would you be interested in doing the research on this topic (or referencing/reviewing some of those who’ve already done so)? Wealth and poverty are extremely common topics in the Bible and they’re discussed in often quite strong and exacting language and I always find the topic interesting and still surprising in what God says about it.